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 Post subject: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:27 am 
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This is not me as a DM speaking this is me as a player, as a player, as a player, as a player, as a player, as a player as a player, as a player, as a player.

That being said we are a non RP enforced server and it will stay that was into the foreseeable future. This is a by choice club allowing RP enforcement and mentoirng by staff and by peers you call upon. While playing on this server you are still required to RP according to rule, but this club is something where you invite DMs to critique and enforce it

This is not a move be a DM but a move by a player. I have heard some complaints that we should enforce following a diety, proper RP in reference to being in the world etc and some simple RP.

Purpose: To provide a list of people as resources and to provide people with assistance in their rp or getting adjusted to the server if they were to be called upon. Additionally, it is an open invitation to Dms to critique or enfroced RP standards upon them. This is not intended as nor will be an elitist organization it is intended only as a way to encourage RP and provide sources for those who want to either learn about or improve their existing RP. Even if you are not in the club you can call upon any member for helpful rp advice if you so wish.

For those of you that arent interested this does not affect your standing in anyone's eyes so don't worry for that. But do not take that this says you don't have to RP. This is a RP required server and is not an option. This club is only in place to prove resources and encourage fellowship on the server. There are no barriers to entry except a willingness to bring life to the server through your rp.

You are expected to do the following:

On RP Your IC more than you are ooc. You would happily provide RP advice in a non-ram it down your throat sort of way if you were called upon both by members of the club and those not in the club. You intention is to breathe life into the world thorugh RPing situations, your environment, interactions you react to the world and you would like to help others do the same if they want to or your hear to learn yourself.

On helping RP You are only to critque another's RP if it is requested of you and then from a helpful and constructive criticism point of view. Bashing another's RP because you don't agree is not the purpose and if you feel this is your approach, please do not add your name to the list.

No Elitisim : you rp and thats grand, but there are others who might not quite get it or not be on board. Doesn't bother you, your here to help.

Cleric Domains... you need to have at least one of the cleric domains associated with your god and your chosen god must be within the timeline. aka no Kelemvor to gain the exotic feat etc.

Spellcasting/Blessings - they don't always have to be up when your sitting around a campfire... or walking along the tradeway. Hope this makes sense.

DM Events - you won't rest without permission. RUnning off and resting to rebuff breaks the flow and you don't like it.

Favored Souls - RP the major tenants of that certain god. You are most favored and expect if you don't act that way to fall from grace.

Paladins - be a paladin avoid multiclassing, if you do multiclass make it make sense.

Guideliness for drow and grey orcs aren't guidelines but rules in your book.

Laws of Baldur's Gate are laws and not funny things to inconvience you while leveling.

You will abide the fist or if you don't you expect IC consequences without ooc issues.

If you get RP robbed, waylaid, assasinated, attempted assisinated or PvP this is an opportunity for RP not an opportunity to kick someone's butt.

The last bit and most important. You invite the DMs to critique your RP, give you advice etc. Now I can't say for certain there will be rewards for it, but I can't say for certain there won't be. This isn't an excuse for a player police state where players themselves start to police another's RP, but those in the club would be good sources to call upon.. I should think.


On Alighnment - you will rp it. If you don't rp it you will expect to have your alighnment shifted by an observing dm. Wihtout an ooc rant or issue.. you might ask for explanation, but its for educational purposes not a reason to argue the dm down.

One of the biggest expectations of this group is your desire to work it all out IC.. if you don't like the results the last thing that should occur is going ooc or tells to resolve an issue. You abhore ooc you abhore tells and want to deal with things ic.

List of those interested 12/27/09

jmbrosendo - Alaknar
Brisadomar - kristel
blank - mutharin
DjnTech - littlefoot
Amal'launim
Ragnarok - Paws/Bharg Mits Kelor Sendd William T. Fieldstone Caedis Praedurum
Aleislum - Aleilsum
FFSDave - Daff Rocshanks
Hathandir
FunnyHatofDeath - Tarnok Deadsbane, Zenkryol, Fenrii SIlverstride
devildog30 - Justin Crownsilver
Sir_Carnifex
Knightmare
DM_Rask
zstreeter
borton
Lam 3 Lambert
Akavit
Ivellios
Chasted
Duster47 = Valqis Sanejmeh Martoq
Smyssel
bulldog27
deserk - Shevril Arke'vel, Khardo Askarin, Karzam Mazkagan
SteelForgedSword = Galen'ael Glenstalker
Sinsemilla = Maximus Angrius / Therro Arkanok / Hatoo Toosdg
Siomir Danneren
Atlas = Arkaine HalfOrken

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Wthyran Tal - Drooling, scarred and generally acidic.
Tarnok Deadsbane - Talk about guilt.

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Last edited by HaberdasherofDoom on Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:29 pm, edited 21 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:42 am 
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actually regarding this thread viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5551&start=0 (the illogic of a disciplined WM / wild FB build IC), I'd like some advice

my char is indeed WM / FB.

i play it that being one of the rare elves with no magic, he trained exclusively with his weopon.

then due to rp which took place, his previously calm nature took a heck of a nose dive. mostly he's slowly regained his calm but under certain specific circumstances, an uncontrollable, utterly ruthless and quite beyond reason rage is triggered. He'll also stand up against anyone who stands against him at that point, friend or foe. Though if he hurt a friend, he'd hate it.

Is this a reasonable way to play the char? I personally believe so up to date, but, a lot of what's being said here makes sense and now I'm just thinking it over again. would appreciate some constructive and blunt advice

cheers to anyone who replies


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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:54 am 
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A weapons master, is almost by definiation someone who views combat as an aesthetic means to improve their fighting style. The film "seven samurai" contains what is arguably the most pure depiction of a weapons master. A man who refuses to engage in combat because it demeans the "art".

A beserker conversely, is someone for whom battle is the sole purpose of their existance.

To neuance a character and balance both these traits, it may be nessecary to include the weapon as a major facet of the characters world view. A ritual attitude to it or an unnatural attachment to it.

I don't think they are mutualy exclusive, if played right. But I do think it is a very difficult concept to play right given the conflicting traits involved... and they are conflicting traits. But then personal conflict is a good source for character development, so... depending on whether you want to "resolve" the conflict, you will have your work cut out.

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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 11:45 pm 
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Tahlisar wrote:
A weapons master, is almost by definiation someone who views combat as an aesthetic means to improve their fighting style. The film "seven samurai" contains what is arguably the most pure depiction of a weapons master. A man who refuses to engage in combat because it demeans the "art".

A beserker conversely, is someone for whom battle is the sole purpose of their existance.

To neuance a character and balance both these traits, it may be nessecary to include the weapon as a major facet of the characters world view. A ritual attitude to it or an unnatural attachment to it.

I don't think they are mutualy exclusive, if played right. But I do think it is a very difficult concept to play right given the conflicting traits involved... and they are conflicting traits. But then personal conflict is a good source for character development, so... depending on whether you want to "resolve" the conflict, you will have your work cut out.



Very true. In fact, there is only one example I can give you in regards to a Berserker/Weapon Master: The character Guts from Berserk. Now THAT is a Frenzied Berserker weapon master if I ever saw one.


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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:33 am 
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I would like to throw my two cents in Berserker Weapon masters.

Most of you dont know but i am Nidan class katana, jo (staff ) and hand to hand combat martial artist. I didnt reveal my belt to gloat or say i am greater then any of you however i would like you to respect the oponion of someone who has studied martial arts for years and has reached a point in his life where he can give a few certainties. I also practice and practiced several martial arts Aikido, Taek-won-do , Jujutso , Karate, Muai-Thai and Kung Fu.

Now let me instruct you fine people in the two diferent types of Ki. Normally people say they are best suited to one martial art of another and that is very true because diferent martial arts will call upon diferent Ki usages. These two Ki are present in all people however depending on the persons character or training one Ki will grow and snuff the other out. What is Ki ? Ki is the energy we have in our bodies that harvested and mastered over several years of training allows practicers to do extreme difficulty maneuvers like breaking rocks , bricks or punch thru slabs of ice im sure you all seen it before so its no bs. Now i spoke of two types of Ki .. yes there are two types commonly associated like Yin and Yang , there is Sei Ki and Dou Ki .

Martial Arts that value harmony and technique over strength and explosive power will over the years strengthen the Sei Ki of a practicioner and allow him to grow in the respective martial art he chose. Sei Ki is calm , serene , enduring it is a meditative sort of Ki that comes from a state of clear mind in wich the practicioner empties his mind of everything emotions thoughts everything and focuses on feeling the energy of his Ki flowing thru his body and gathers it at a certain point to execute a certain waza. Aikido, Kung Fu some Karate forms are examples of this type of Ki use. What does this have to do with weapon mastery simple. Aikido experts always learn to use the two noble weapons of their tradition sword and staff. A practicioner of Sei sword techniques doesnt experience anything behond absolute focus on his weapon to the point of becoming one with it .. in some advanced levels of use it is possible to meditate while doing sword suburi.

The second type of Ki .. the Dou Ki is used in martial arts that value explosive bursts of strength and ability to endure most types of fisical punishment. There are Muai-Thai , Box , some for of karate , Savate etc. While not actually berserking in the DnD meaning of the word users of these martial arts allow strong feelings and emotions to guide their Ki flow. Due to its nature the usage of Dou leaves one feeling depleted after a short while since its not in the nature of it to last more then a few then a moments.

If you want evidence try watching a marathon or a 100 meter sprint race. THe diferences are obvious and dramatic and the same is with any martial art that uses either of the Ki flows. After some tought i went to my own master a nanadan (7thdan) and asked him if its possible to master both Ki flows and he answered me with this " Building a martial artist is like building a car its either for high speed with the design, engine that fit such a use or for family use with high confort confortable seats, less powerfull engine to prevent excessive fuel spending , design and cost .. in other words you cant beat a ferrari with a cherokee on the track .. nor can you take a ferrari to do all terrain alongside a cherokee you build it for a single purpose and you are limited by that single purpose "


I hope this has shed some light in the problem. Dou and Sei cannot be mixed you can not have explosive strength and endurance , calm and fury it is impossible nature itself doesnt allow it much less martial arts that where born from observing nature. So please let the discussion end with this as well as any doubts over char builds. You can build whatever you want... afterall this is a game and its meant to be enjoyed but if you want realism there are unshakable laws that should be observed before attempting such a weird mixture of complete oposites .


Thank you for reading this long post of mine if you have any questions or criticism feel free to ask or do so.. as i said before everyone is entitled to their opinion .


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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:47 am 
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I offer the best example of a Barbarian/Weaponmaster/Rogue/Berserker.


Conan the Barbarian.

I mean, the guy is clearly a powergamer, and min maxer (rarely speaks), but his RP concept works.

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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:55 am 
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Maybe i'm wrong, but in my reading a Berserker/Weapon Master would be a valid build, lore/realism-wise as you said, one could try to master his/her Dou Ki instead of the Sei Ki. It would be weird if there would be wisdom restrictions to pick Weapons Master, but there isn't, so i guess the best example of the Sei Ki user would be a monk, and not the weapon master. So if i am right, then a Sei Ki user weapon master would be a Monk/WM with a weapon, and the Dou Ki user would be a Berserker/WM, even if using the Dou Ki isn't exactly the same as berserking.

It's just my opinion and most likely I'm not the best when it comes to rp or martial arts. :)


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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:57 am 
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.... im not one to go against what DM say but i hope you noticed you used a fantasy character from a fantasy world one that hasnt the foggiest idea of the depth of true martial arts. Conan would be owned very quickly by some real life masters. I can tell because he is all muscle so his moovements are sluggish and slow his stance is laughable and his technique is non existance. How you can place him within the paramenters of " weapon master " eludes me... What i said was to keep realism to those that wanted it then again everyone is free to voice their own ops..


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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:02 am 
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I dunno... He tore a lot of people some new holes in the book. One can hardly use the Movies as a point of reference because well... They aren't always that exact

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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:03 am 
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Disclaimer:


Said character was offered as an example of what could be done, and in no way to be taken seriously or as a staff ruling.


Haha, if only you could see my smile as I typed it in.

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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:19 am 
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/dm hat off

You and Thresuin clearly know a massive amount about martial arts, but a couple of questions: are WMs actually the same as martial artists?

If they are then there are closer parallels. if they are not, then the comparison holds water, but only so far.

thinking about it, what occurs is that surely there must have been people who counted as weopons masters in teh West before ever martial artists were known of?

what do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:34 am 
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In my "Champion of Cheese" thread, I think the head was nailed pretty well.

The "original" WM (according to pnp books) is a monk-inspired master of Ki, and in its recent development, even has to be lawful aligned. And the FB had a requirement of having barbarian background to even take the class.

So, if we actually go with these storylines, instead of claiming that "weaponmasters are just good with a weapon" and "frenzied berserkers just like to fight", the two prestigue classes should be mutually exclusive.

That's from a RP perspective. From a power/fairness perspective, I don't see the reason to allow it either. Unless being able to (unbuffed) constantly deal about 150-250hp hits per crit within a crit range of 13-20 to 15-20, depending on how cheesy a weapon one has chosen, is deemed fair.

Fighter/weaponmaster and barbarian/frenziedberserker are plenty of power as it is. You don't need to combine WM/FB any more than you need to opt for the most powerful build possible in general. There is a difference between want and need ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:36 am 
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/dm hat off

Yeah, good point about the Ki

Hrm, then i probably need to rebuild aleil ,.... hehe. if i can get permission. which is not guarenteed.


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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:43 am 
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Okay as the joke goes i got it and smiled too when i realized what it was ^^

As for Aleilsums question here goes

Okay what defines Sei and Dou ?

Ill give you some more practical examples, choice of weapons is one!

Im sure you all realized by now that using a rapier is very diferent from using a greatsword. In what ways? well.. one uses strength and overpowering blows the other uses cunning cooly calculative hits . This choice in tactics is already a manifestation of Sei use and Dou use. To be completelly honest the moment you make the choice of using Weapon Finesse as in choose agility , cunning and intelect to score the blows on weak spots of a foe instead of trying to over power strength with greater strength you are already choosing Sei over Dou. However one is not better then the other alright? Its simple diferent.

Sei weapon mastery in the west? sure it has been around for a very long time and the todays version of it is " Fencing" wich happens to be a Olympic class martial art. Have you ever watched a match? Try notice how they try to antecipate each others blows and counter as soon as the opening shows itself! The cooly calculative way they patiently wait jumping back and forth while trading off little testing blows is merelly judging each others reflexes and waiting for the chance to strike ... that is Sei use at its finest.
Dou weapon use in the west of course! One of the first manifestations of it apeared with the usage of swords like the german zweihander or scottish claymore.
However please not the diferent in the combat types. Strength vs agility , patience vs rush , endurance vs explosive action

Someone mentioned monk swordsmen? I think i know what you mean your talking about Shaolin type swordsmanship yes.. its Sei at its finest and where the greater uses of Ki have been showed to the outside world.

However you dont need to become a monk to become a master.

Three steps : Aprenticeship , Expert and Mastery

There are the three steps that no martial artist can ever evade whatever the Ki whatever the type.


I think however the DnD presented Weapon Master class is not a true Sei or Dou user because to my experience it shows signs of both uses in what way? Well begining with the variety of weapons you may choose to master a Sei master will never ever use a greatsword and a Dou will never use a rapier for the same purpose. Its not the armor use that bugs me .. since armors where used by Sei sword styles from very long ago .. even tho a Sei user would preferebly avoid using stuff like Tower shields and heavy plates since doing so would weaken his stance as one that patiently waits for the oportunety. It bothers me however that they use Ki ... this however is already a weird mixture to me.

You can master Dou .. you can master Sei yes its possible and its natural progression of a martial artist to do so. However Ki emition like the one showed and used by that class doesnt feel right.


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 Post subject: Re: RP-Critique/Support/Self Monitoring Club
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:59 am 
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I forgot to add this sorry.

I want to give you examples of Ki usage like the one shown in the class weapon master.

When attempting a Ki feat a martial artist always needs mental preparation normally adding some gestures with his arms im sure you all noticed one time or another ... the gesturing with open palms from your stomach upwards and then towards the front or the place where he is gathering Ki.

Have you noticed the face they make? One is calm serene relaxed as emotionles as a block of a ice the other has his muscles tensed gathering strength for the blow but by no means are they berserking around . The moment that the Ki is released with the impact however is when its diferent a Sei user will keep his composure and probably remain a blank slate all thru the strike since his Ki was trained to flow easier that way a Dou user will probably let out a very loud " Kiai .

Ending.. Ki use require absolute concentration to both types.

If you want to make it realistic in a Dou master barbarian. I would suggest not using Ki strikes while in any type of Rage.

The true sei users of DnD however i think are not avaiable in this game wich would be the Sword Saints.

I hope you understand the complexety of this process i am not very skilled in Ki strikes myself.. im only 2ºDan afterall. If everyone wants i can go ask the masters at the dojo for more info on this matter i can get back to everyone with new information on the matter as soon as i go back to the dojo since ive been sick for 15 days now :(


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