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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:11 pm 
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Thids wrote:
I'm making a sleazy lawyer type of character to give those poor souls a fighting chance in such a biased judicial system.

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I've had this in mind since I started here!

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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:23 pm 
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c'mon guys... less "Law and Order" and more "Salem witch trials"

We're not going to overcomplicate this past the simple guidelines given.

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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:33 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Thids wrote:
I'm making a sleazy lawyer type of character to give those poor souls a fighting chance in such a biased judicial system.

Image


I was already considering this is in my head, therefore, it's taken! :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:46 pm 
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Charraj, where art thou?

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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:34 pm 
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Here. :)

This idea sounds awesome, and I think it'll probably be a lot of fun. Wish I'd thought of it. :lol:

But why must two jurors be from the RH or OSR? On the contrary, I would think that there should actually be no jurors from either of those factions. I mean, it totally makes sense for RH and OSR characters to be judges, or even prosecutors. But the finder of fact (the jury) should never be pulled from the same pool as the prosecutors and judges. That would be a serious IC conflict of interest. I mean, how can a jury be impartial if two of its members are friends and colleagues with the prosecutor? Also, requiring two of the jurors to be RH/OSR might be giving those factions too much power, even OOCly.

So IMO, the jury needs to at least appear impartial. Unless the idea is that these trials are ICly rigged/biased, like the Salem Witch Trials. In that case, I could see why we want two jurors from the RH/OSR. But then very few PCs would consent to one of these trials, lol

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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:43 pm 
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And aren't the holy orders dedicated to the greater good before the law, since their all enlightened and stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:50 pm 
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I think different PCs might take different approaches, and it probably depends on what deity they follow. But I could easily see a Lawful paladin of Tyr having a problem with a biased jury.

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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:01 pm 
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Katarina would definetly not agree to having a biased jury. She has already acted as judge in one case and everything went pretty well all involved seemed to have a good time. The verdict did come down guilty but she did not deliver the sentance, the dm did as delivering the sentance would be giving a pc to much power.

I enjoyed the experience myself

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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:31 pm 
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Hitman Hard wrote:
And aren't the holy orders dedicated to the greater good before the law, since their all enlightened and stuff.


Some holy men, especially many Tyrians, leans a lot more to the Lawful aspect of their god's dogma than others would, since Tyr is the embodiment of just law.

An Ilmateri would probably focus more on redemption and be more inclined to give second chances.

If someone has committed treachery and is put on trial, a Tormite would be harsh, perhaps even harsher than a Tyrian, in their sentence.

So, it all comes down to what the one on trial has committed and which kind of holy man is the judge. Also, there's the difference between clerics, paladins and laities. Paladins would be far more zealous and unforgiving than clerics and laities in many cases.

(The stereotypical whimpy Paladin of Super-Nice and Ever-Tolerance that so many people tend to play is not really the norm in the Forgotten Realms.)

http://www.paperspencils.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Paladins.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:39 am 
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RedDawgRavenWolf wrote:
The verdict did come down guilty but she did not deliver the sentance, the dm did as delivering the sentance would be giving a pc to much power.

Yes, but I'm not really talking about the sentence. Of course a DM should decide the sentence. But we only reach the sentencing after a guilty verdict, and a jury is the one that delivers that verdict. So from an IC perspective (and maybe an OOC perspective too), jury bias can certainly be an important issue.

I think a paladin would definitely want an unbiased and impartial jury. However, what makes an unbiased jury in the FR setting is probably open to interpretation. I personally think it means that the RH/OSR shouldn't serve on the jury. However, now that I think about it more, I could also see members of the RH/OSR saying in-character, "We're the RH/OSR, of course we'll be impartial jury members. That's our sworn duty," or something. So it could make sense ICly either way (and it would be fun to RP out). I'm just raising the issue of jury bias because it's the only thing that really jumps out at me.

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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:03 am 
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Charraj wrote:
Here. :)

This idea sounds awesome, and I think it'll probably be a lot of fun. Wish I'd thought of it. :lol:

But why must two jurors be from the RH or OSR? On the contrary, I would think that there should actually be no jurors from either of those factions. I mean, it totally makes sense for RH and OSR characters to be judges, or even prosecutors. But the finder of fact (the jury) should never be pulled from the same pool as the prosecutors and judges. That would be a serious IC conflict of interest. I mean, how can a jury be impartial if two of its members are friends and colleagues with the prosecutor? Also, requiring two of the jurors to be RH/OSR might be giving those factions too much power, even OOCly.

So IMO, the jury needs to at least appear impartial. Unless the idea is that these trials are ICly rigged/biased, like the Salem Witch Trials. In that case, I could see why we want two jurors from the RH/OSR. But then very few PCs would consent to one of these trials, lol

Charraj wrote:
RedDawgRavenWolf wrote:
The verdict did come down guilty but she did not deliver the sentance, the dm did as delivering the sentance would be giving a pc to much power.

Yes, but I'm not really talking about the sentence. Of course a DM should decide the sentence. But we only reach the sentencing after a guilty verdict, and a jury is the one that delivers that verdict. So from an IC perspective (and maybe an OOC perspective too), jury bias can certainly be an important issue.

I think a paladin would definitely want an unbiased and impartial jury. However, what makes an unbiased jury in the FR setting is probably open to interpretation. I personally think it means that the RH/OSR shouldn't serve on the jury. However, now that I think about it more, I could also see members of the RH/OSR saying in-character, "We're the RH/OSR, of course we'll be impartial jury members. That's our sworn duty," or something. So it could make sense ICly either way (and it would be fun to RP out). I'm just raising the issue of jury bias because it's the only thing that really jumps out at me.


Agreed Charraj on All points. A++

I can tell you from experience, you can't please everyone and there will be Alot of drama associated with this.. some good some very bad, be prepared to thicken your skin on all sides. Elvina use to be one of the Councilors of the main city on our last server and sometimes the DM would play the Judge and sometimes the Councilors would do so, the system was very similar to what's proposed here ... bottom line every time though no matter if played by DM or Players... Drama Llama showed its head and there was one side or the other screaming Foul. Thick skin is a must. :)

Also a trial by Tyr is not something done every day, infact the OSR had been working and RPing a case for MONTHS, gathering evidence, finding witnesses.. all of which is now flushed down the toilet due to the player no longer playing. This should be very very rare in any case as the respective cities all should have their own policies and justice systems in place on how to deal with law breakers while in or on their jurisdiction. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:18 am 
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We are definitely thinking of "biased Jury" in modern terms here. In a Duchy, having representatives of the aristocracy among the jury is par for the course. If anything... from an IC purpose, this jury is bias by allowing commoners into it... :o ...


The other reason I wanted to mandate the presence of knightly & Divine factions among the jury is to preclude a potential OOC reality. Namely, a scenario where someone is on trial, and they tell all their friends to come be jurors through PM's and Tells to rig the trial.


The goal of this is RP opportunities and storytelling. Not replicating a fair and impartial legal system. Most of these will in fact be Witch Trials.... If you don't want to play, just opt out...

... and let the DM team fry you with impunity anyway :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:37 pm 
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As a lawful evil character i like this idea! It means that if you can argue a good enough case for your defence then its possible to get away with murder! (or bribe/blackmail the jury)

+1 from me. This has potential to open up lots of interesting RP.

Sure enough there is potential to cause a little drama however i feel that the DM's will just step in and settle it themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: Guidelines for player run trials in Baldur's Gate
Unread postPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:12 am 
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How would a trial in Sshamath be conducted?

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